Thursday, March 22, 2007
Christian
I am amazed at the number of LDS websites that have posts which go at great length to prove they are Christian. They believe Jesus is God's son, they believe he was sinless, they believe he rose from the dead. These sites take many common points to prove their case. I have yet to see one that tells the whole story. Never do you see one that admits their Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer. It is rare to see one that admits they are polytheistic. When these rarely acknowledged points are known, it is obvious we are not talking about the Jesus of the Bible. (These same points are not found in the Book of Mormon either.) Mormons want to be known as 'followers of Christ.' I perfer to call them 'followers of Christ- the spirit brother of Lucifer.' Since Lucifer seeks to undermine Christ, I could also call them 'anti-Christians.'
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
18 comments:
Dear Anti-Dante,
I do not see the challenge you have with Jesus the spirit brother of Satan? Wasn't Satan, Lucifer before he became Satan? He was considered in the Old Testament Son of the Morning. Also, in Revelation Lucifer when he rebelled became Satan. Did he not take with him the THIRD of the HOST of Heaven? So, who were the THIRD of the HOST of Heaven? They were are brothers and sisters, but now because they too rebelled and did not agree with the Plan of Salvation, they became angels to Satan and as well became devils like Lucifer. Remember, that Satan was not evil before he FELL from grace and made OPEN Rebellion against ALL that was GOOD and RIGHTEOUS; therefore, he became Satan from being Lucifer - the father of ALL lies. Remember the THIRD of the HOST of Heaven were our brothers and sisters TOO. Furthermore, when the time comes those who will not accept the Christ or Jesus as their Savior and Redeember, will they not also become subjects to Satan and become angels to the Devil. Are these people on earth not are brothers and sisters? I think that is enough to start with. Nevertheless, my suggestion is keeping on believing in Christ and we as LDS, will continue to believe in Christ as well, even if you think we believe in a different Christ - Remember 1Samuel 16:7 God does not look on our outward appearances - even the Pharisee knew the Bible but their lives were filled with hypocrisy. The Lord knows his sheep and his sheep know Him. Matthew 7:16&17 - it is the fruits of the people that demonstrate whether they be corrupt or good. Finally, my question to you? How is it that using the Bible there isn't ONLY one Faith, one Lord, one Baptism in the Christian world? There are Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical, Episcopal, non-denominational faiths? If they ALL believe in the same Jesus why are they so fragmented? My answer is that they cannot agree on doctrine. As Mormon's we have the same Christ, whether you believe it or not, but we certainly have differring doctrines.
Dear Dr. Macavinta,
I rarely look at this e-mail address and just stumbled
across it. When Lucifer is called "Son of the Morning" it is not the
same as "Son of God." Do you really believe Lucifer was a son "of the
early part of the day." Does that time of the day have children as
well. Obviously as a Christian I recognize that we are creations.
"Creations" is much different than the idea of a god eternally having
sex with multiple to women to produce spirit babies. I recognize that
the heavenly host were angels, not offspring of eternal sex. Satan
did decieve 1/3 of the angels, but these were not spirit babies.
You seem to smart to be asking the question about different
denominations. Do you not know there are numerous LDS denominations?
The Reorganized Church (now the Community of Christ) is one of many.
Since it is easy to assume Joseph Smith knew how to teach his own
flesh and blood, you would think they would be the most correct (since
his children followed them.) Different denominations are not really a
problem. There are different parts of the body with different
functions. We have to be sure they are all connected to the same head
and thus have to examine them. I have lots of brothers and sisters
that are not the same denomination as myself.
And no, we do not worship the same Christ.
dr. macavinta has given a very good comment about your critic of the LDS doctrine. I enjoyed particularly when he said "it is the fruits of the people that demonstrate whether they be corrupt or good". In my opinion someone who spends his life spreading hate comments about the LDS Church or any other church is giving a very bad fruit.
Really hilarious was your answer to his comment. Normally many anti-mormons argue that Lucifer is not son of God because he was called "Son of the Morning". At first I thought you were more intelligent when you said "...Lucifer was a son "of the
early part of the day." Does that time of the day have children as
well" So I thought you didn't agree with most of your anti-mormon friends. But I had to change my idea about you when you said ""Creations" is much different than the idea of a god eternally having
sex with multiple to women to produce spirit babies". That's a perversion of the LDS doctrine. (a very nasty one mixing sex with GOD)
I will try to forget your "sexual problems" and I wonder if you can explain to me:
- why Paul said that are families in heaven (Eph 3:14-15) and that we all are "offspring of God"(acts 17:29).
- Why God is called "Heavenly Father" (Mathew 6:9) and also "Father of spirits" (heb 12:9).
- Why Lactantius (a Latin father that died 320 AD)said "Lucifer would have been nothing less the brother of the logos... the future Satan would be, no less, the younger brother of the future Christ"
cesar- Interesting you quote someone who lived well after your supposed apostasy. If good fruits is the only thing you use to base someone's validity, then I guess you believe Satan is a Christian when he shows himself like an angel of light. Too many times I have encountered Mormons trying to say that when Satan is called a Son of the Morning, it means he was a spirit child of God. I was having fun with that explination before it could be brought up. I am glad you see just how stupid it is. Concerning where Mormons think spirit babies come from, I got the impression from Brigham Young. "(God) created man, as we create our children, for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be." BY June 18, 1865 JOD.
The fruits of _Satan are quite evident, he represents the evil. The criteria GIVEN BY THE SAVIOR is a good criteria to evaluate people.
BY wasn't talking about the creation of spirits but about the creation of the man (Adam). Before that sentence BY has quoted the scripture in Genesis about the creation of Adam (Gen 1:26-27) and says "I believe that the declaration made in these two scriptures is literally true. God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works, and given them the same attributes which He himself possesses" And then he says what you quoted... HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE CREATION OF ADAM NOT SPIRITS. Here's another quote out of context. You really love to pevert quotes... Let me give an advice, before you quote something analyse all the context about it, check yourself all the references given by the anti-mormon literature.
About Lactantius I used his commentary because that proves that the teaching "Lucifer brother of Jesus" was known in the early Christianity. So if LDS CHURCH IS NOT CHRISTIAN THEN ALSO LACTANTIUS IS NOT CHRISTIAN
With apostasy many things of the Gospel were lost but many others weren't.
By the way, you didn't explain all the scriptures I quoted. You don't know how? Or your anti-mormon book don't have answers?
ceaser- By your own comments you admit to worshiping a man. You will call him an exalted man, but still merely a man. Why did I make the reference about Satan being the son of the morning? Because numerous times I have had Mormons use just that to try to prove Satan was a child of God. Pitiful. If you really want to get into what Bigham Young said about Adam, lets go at it. He was all over the place on this one, even called Adam the father of our spirits. And by the way, I have numerous copies I have made straight out of several Mormon books on this one.
I'm still waiting the answers to:
"- why Paul said that are families in heaven (Eph 3:14-15) and that we all are "offspring of God"(acts 17:29).
- Why God is called "Heavenly Father" (Mathew 6:9) and also "Father of spirits" (heb 12:9).
- Why Lactantius (a Latin father that died 320 AD)said "Lucifer would have been nothing less the brother of the logos... the future Satan would be, no less, the younger brother of the future Christ"
Will you answer or will you continue to block and delete my comments. Are you afraid of the truth?
cesar
"- why Paul said that are families in heaven (Eph 3:14-15) and that we all are "offspring of God"(acts 17:29). "
If you read any amount of the New Testament it is clear we are Sons (and Daughters) of God through being born again, through the finished work of Jesus, according to the will of the Father. Before conversion we are at war or emity with God (Rom 8:7; Eph 2:15-16; James 4:4)
One of the things between Mormonism and Christianity that must be addressed is Authority... The LDS have the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, if we read Hebrews chapters 5 through 8 we see that the priesthood of Aaron was changed (Hebrews 7:12) and the Melchizedek is and "everlasting" priesthood and can only be held by Jesus and Jesus alone. (Hebrews 7:22, 24-28) in verse 24 is reads "ut this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." the greek word of unchangeable can be rendered untransferable. So Jesus hold the Melchizedek priesthood, it's untransferable and the Aaronic priesthood is no longer is use because it has been changed.
The Christians authority:
John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name"
The word used for power here in the greek can also be rendered "authority". Our authority comes from God above.
One last connected thing, Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 "For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
I ask, can you being a Mormon can honestly read this and not see your church in those verses? And regarding your Testimony, if Satan "transforms himself as an angel of light" does Eph 6:16 when it speaks of the "fiery darts of the wicked one" would this be your burning in your bosom?
- Why God is called "Heavenly Father" (Mathew 6:9) and also "Father of spirits" (heb 12:9).
First you might want to read the entire chapter of Hebrews 12, but the entire verse answers itself quite well.
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"
The chapter itself deals with correction or discipline and the verse is clearly showing that or earth fathers discipline us and we showed them respect and honor by living a right life, and how much more when we subject ourselves to the Father in Heaven. This is the only place the term Father of spirits is used in the entire Bible, the writer of Hebrews was most likely show the divide between or earthly fathers and our Heavenly Father, the is no mention of the pre-existence of the soul, or spirit children, to take one verse out of context to try and show your churches personal view of your belief of the nature of God and the nature of man is out of line.
- Why Lactantius (a Latin father that died 320 AD)said "Lucifer would have been nothing less the brother of the logos... the future Satan would be, no less, the younger brother of the future Christ"
Quoting a not very well known Latin-speaking native of North Africa, does not make for a church father. There were many people claim wild things in the early centuries of the church. Arius "that Jesus was a created lesser being that God" today we see this with the Jehovah's Witnesses, Sabellianism "the idea that one God is in three different modes or wears three different masks" (modalism) these two happened before the end of the 2nd century.
j.
dr. macavinta (dmac)
"There are Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical, Episcopal, non-denominational faiths? If they ALL believe in the same Jesus why are they so fragmented? My answer is that they cannot agree on doctrine. As Mormon's we have the same Christ, whether you believe it or not, but we certainly have differring doctrines."
Well the point you have obviously missed is we agree on essential doctrine, who God is, who Jesus is, the Trinity, Hell, man is sinful by nature, we need a saviour, Jesus will come to judge the living and the dead, etc.
Now we may disagree on non-essential doctrine what type of worship, how a service is structured, when a service takes place, what your endtimes views are, what color carpet ones church has, etc.
The diversity on the Christian church is awesome, showing God is a God of love, but also a God with a sense of humor. If we all looked, dressed, worshiped, etc the same we would be robots... errr Mormons.
My personal view of those arguing over non-essential doctrine like it is essential doctrine shows a lack of personal maturity, in some respects we all have it. But in essential doctrine we as Christian we might to fight, contend and not back down to any twisting of the word of God.
Augustine: In essentials we need to have unity, in non-essentials we need to have liberty, and in all things charity (love)
As for the Mormons, today there are about 100 break off sects from the original Missouri group, and as they won a court case a few years back proving they have the legal rights to be the LDS/Mormons, the LDS from Utah are the break off and if you look at all the branches of different Mormon groups there is no agreement on who should control what, who is the true prophet, etc.
j.
Interesting, Gazinni didn't answer (probably he didn't know how to do it) And the answers came from one of his friends.
I agreed with some of the answers given by "Seated". I also enjoyed his style, because he didn't give and perverted quotes from my leadership and surprisingly didn't change the subject! Gazinni I don't know if you know "Seated" but I commend you to learn with him how to talk with other religions.
Let me give a few comments to Seated
"there is no mention of the pre-existence of the soul, or spirit children to take one verse out of context to try and show your churches personal view of your belief of the nature of God and the nature of man is out of line.
"
When I asked: "Why God is called "Heavenly Father" (Mathew 6:9) and also "Father of spirits" (heb 12:9)." The scriptures given are quite clear and aren't given out of context. I only asked why God was called this way.
I understood by your answers, God is our Heavenly Father when we accept the gospel and was called Father of spirits to make a difference between our mortal fathers.
I agree partially to what you said, but I wonder myself, didn't God have sons who don't agree with Him and fight against Him?
Did the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" show us an example of a son who "...was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." (Luke 15:32)
The Prodigal Son was always called as a "son" before (vers 11), during (vers 21) and after his life of Sin (vers 24). Vers 21 is interesting because he says:"and am no more worthy to be called thy son" He only wasn't worthy to be called is Son in a spiritual and social sense, but he always was a biological son, that's why he still was calling the man as a Father.
So is quite logical, our Heavenly Father created our spirits and is always our Father (in a creational sense). When we sin we are not worthy to be called Sons of God (in a spiritual sense)
There's plenty of scriptures in the bible talking about the pre-existence of the soul (John 1:1-2;14 Ecl 12:7; Jer 1:4-5; Zac 12:1 and many others).
This knowledge was so well know in the time of Christ that the apostles asked the Lord who had sinned "this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2)
How a man can sin before he was born. The Savior didn't corrected the apostles saying that the blind couldn't have sin and merely gave another explanation to the blindness "...that the works of God should be made manifest in him" (vers 3)
Also in the early Christianity the pre-existence was well know. Justin Martyr said that at death the "soul . . . goes back to the place from whence it was taken." Also Clement speaked confidently of the faithful belonging to "the first Church, the spiritual one which was created before the sun and moon." Being a church an organization of persons faithful to God; this has no meaning unless the Saints of the earthly Church were first organized in eternal relationships before coming to earth.
Probably you are going to say all those are heretical. Interesting, those who don't follow your doctrines are heretical and non-christians.
So, Lactantius, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen (he also wrote about soul pre-existence) were all heretical and not christians?!!!
So Lactantius isn't a Latin Father? So why he is in the 6th Volume of the Collection Ante-Nicene Fathers, subtitled "The Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325"? (This collection was published in 1860 by the presbyterian publishing house of T. & T. Clark in Edinburgh.)
Well final conclusion, if LDS are not Christian because they believe in Pre-existence of the soul and Lucifer is brother of Jesus and from every person, then also the Apostles, some church Fathers and the Savior himself aren't Christians.
Correction, Lactantius is in the 7th volume of the "Ante-Nicene Fathers"
I am quite familiar with the LDS positions on most LDS Doctrines. Will answer you last statement first, as it is one that has the most to do with anything.
You stated "Well final conclusion, if LDS are not Christian because they believe in Pre-existence of the soul and Lucifer is brother of Jesus and from every person, then also the Apostles, some church Fathers and the Savior himself aren't Christians."
LDS are not Christians because Christianity is Monotheist and the LDS church is Polytheist, you cannot be a Monotheist and a Polytheist at the same time. The Law of Non-Contradiction doesn't allow for it for one, and the Bible is very clear that there is one God by nature, one God who is eternal, one God period and there are no others, there is no gods before Him, there are no gods after Him. As for some of the early Church Fathers not being Christians, I sure there might have been a few that weren't truly re-generate and therefore not saved, also there was an Apostle who wasn't saved, his name was Judas and he walked with Jesus for 3 years.
"When I asked: "Why God is called "Heavenly Father" (Mathew 6:9) and also "Father of spirits" (heb 12:9)." The scriptures given are quite clear and aren't given out of context. I only asked why God was called this way. "
I answered this on my last post, not going over it again...
"I understood by your answers, God is our Heavenly Father when we accept the gospel and was called Father of spirits to make a difference between our mortal fathers. "
Again see above...
"I agree partially to what you said, but I wonder myself, didn't God have sons who don't agree with Him and fight against Him?"
We are at war with God before conversion, the reason we are called "sons of God" is he created us, we are at war because of Adam's fall, and the sinful nature we inherited from Adam. I know the LDS position on Adam, his sin and our sin, read Romans 5.
"Did the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" show us an example of a son who "...was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." (Luke 15:32)"
A parable... Jesus showing the love he and the Father has for all of us, as we were all Prodigal children walking aimlessly on our own way before conversion (Eph. 2:1-2)
"The Prodigal Son was always called as a "son" before (vers 11), during (vers 21) and after his life of Sin (vers 24). Vers 21 is interesting because he says:"and am no more worthy to be called thy son" He only wasn't worthy to be called is Son in a spiritual and social sense, but he always was a biological son, that's why he still was calling the man as a Father."
Again a parable.. Understanding the position we have been given because of the finished work of Jesus, when we know, then we understand we are not worth, nor will we ever be able to do anything to make ourselves worthy, that is reserved for God and God alone.
"So is quite logical, our Heavenly Father created our spirits and is always our Father (in a creational sense). When we sin we are not worthy to be called Sons of God (in a spiritual sense)"
We are not worthy in any sense, he makes us worthy. Gods Grace or unmerited favor, getting what we don't deserve; life with him, life eternal, blessings, etc. God's Mercy, not getting what we do deserve, hell, instant death, punishment, judgement, etc.
If you think you can do anything that will make you worthy before God, go ahead try.
"There's plenty of scriptures in the bible talking about the pre-existence of the soul (John 1:1-2;14 Ecl 12:7; Jer 1:4-5; Zac 12:1 and many others)."
John 1:1-2; 14 speaks of Jesus, Jer 1:4-5 "efore I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." This is God saying to Jeremiah that he can call things that are not as if they are, the Omniscience of God.
Zec 21:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."
I'm not sure where you are getting the pre-existence of the soul out of that?
Ecc 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Again, no mention of the pre-existence of the soul, the fact that we are created, our matter will return to the earth, and what is spiritual will return to God for either judgement or eternal life.
"This knowledge was so well know in the time of Christ that the apostles asked the Lord who had sinned "this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2)"
How a man can sin before he was born. The Savior didn't corrected the apostles saying that the blind couldn't have sin and merely gave another explanation to the blindness "...that the works of God should be made manifest in him" (vers 3)"
Yes, the power of God was to be shown in this miracle, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we are all born sinners, if we could live a sinless life in anyway, Jesus died in vain. The real answer is in verse 32 of the same chapter, when the Jewish leaders are questioning the once blind man, and one of them says "Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind." This was as much to heal the man, as it was to show Jesus divine power, the Jewish leaders knew that this was something special, yet they still denied the miracles of Jesus.
"Also in the early Christianity the pre-existence was well know. Justin Martyr said that at death the "soul . . . goes back to the place from whence it was taken." Also Clement speaked confidently of the faithful belonging to "the first Church, the spiritual one which was created before the sun and moon." Being a church an organization of persons faithful to God; this has no meaning unless the Saints of the earthly Church were first organized in eternal relationships before coming to earth."
I will have to look over their works, I have never come across anything that would say that they believed that, i know the LDS church loves to quote people when it appears that those who would never agree with them. So I will leave that at that, if you have some real quotes I can look them up.
"Probably you are going to say all those are heretical. Interesting, those who don't follow your doctrines are heretical and non-christians."
No I'm not going to say anything more than I already have, the issue or non-issue or pre-existence of the human soul would not be something that would damn someone to, or be separated from God for all eternity.
So, Lactantius, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen (he also wrote about soul pre-existence) were all heretical and not christians?!!!"
The pre-existence of the human soul as an LDS church member see it and as a Christian sees it are two different things.
LDS view: Father God a resurrected man with a physical body and Mother God (no details give, as her name should never be spoken) have eternal sex, producing spirit children. Those spirit children in turn fill the bodies of of good mormon boys and girls.
Christian view: Only Christ pre-existed (John 1:1-2; 14, John 8:58, Exodus 3:14, Colossians 1:16, 17)
"So Lactantius isn't a Latin Father? So why he is in the 6th Volume of the Collection Ante-Nicene Fathers, subtitled "The Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325"? (This collection was published in 1860 by the presbyterian publishing house of T. & T. Clark in Edinburgh.)"
Quoting someone doesn't make their point of view right, my point was I've never heard of the guy before, if his views are as you quoted, then he didn't follow the views of historic Christianity.
In closing, all the LDS missionaries and lay people I have met are fair good people, with what seems to be strong social moral code and conduct which os more than I can say for those being held in high regard by the media at large, but being a good person and living a good or even a great life won't ever get you into heaven, or keep you from hell. Abraham was used as an example of faith in several New Testament examples, (Romans, Hebrews, James) were he was justified by faith before circumcision, justified by faith by believing God would raise his son. If anyone could boast of works it would be Abraham, yet the New Testament writers show it was his faith, the same with our lives, we are saved by grace through faith, not by works, least anyone should or could boast (Romans 4:2; Eph 2:8-10; Gal 2:16; Titus, 2:5; Romans 3:24; Romans 5:15)
If you wish I can point counterpoint the differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism...
j.
"LDS are not Christians because Christianity is Monotheist and the LDS church is Polytheist, you cannot be a Monotheist and a Polytheist"
The term Christian was invented by the gentiles and is related to the followers of Christh. The use of the prefix -ians was also used to the cesarians or the herodians. So the therm was used to diferentiate the followers of christ from the Jews.
So being Christian doesn't apply following any specific doctrine, but implies merely believing in Christ.
That's why Catholicism, protestants, JW's, LDS and many others are all christians.
So my friend whatever you say will never remove my Christianity. We all have different doctrines and and different interpretations and we all must respect each other.
About the parable of the good samaritan you didn't like the use of the word "worthy" but the word came from the mouth of Christ not mine. You were trying to change subject to your doctrine (not from bible) of Salvation from grace alone.
My use of the parable was to shown that the Savior taught us the relation we have with the Heavenly Father. So I repeat:
"our Heavenly Father created our spirits and is always our Father (in a creational sense). When we sin we are not worthy to be called Sons of God (in a spiritual sense)"
About the scriptures about the pre-existence of the soul. I can see we have a common ground. We both believe in the pre-existence of Christ before He was born. I wonder, being christ our example (John 13:15) why we didn't follow Him also in His pre-existence.
To Jer 1:4-5 you interpreted it with the "God's omniscience". Of course I don't agree with it. Is a vague interpretation. This scripture connected with all the others I gave make sense the pre-existence doctrine.
For example you didn't understood Zec 21:1 (i would be suprised if you do!!!),anyway the sentence "and formeth the spirit of man within him." showns that God formed the spirit of the man and the spirit was living with Him
You also didn't understood the scripture Ecc 12:7 the spirit of the man "returned" to God who "gave it". So the spirit returns to where it was because all the spirits lived with God before they were born in the earth.
"but that doesn't take away from the fact that we are all born sinners"
Here we have another apostate doctrine, didn't christ said we should be like little children. we must be like them because they don't have sins.
"The pre-existence of the human soul as an LDS church member see it and as a Christian sees it are two different things"
LDS are Christians so this sentence has no sense at all.
"... have eternal sex, producing spirit children"
I see you have the same "sex problems" as Igazzini lol. The terms "eternal sex" and "spirit children" only exists in anti-mormon literature not in the LDS Church
"I will have to look over their works" I really commend you to study in real books the gospel not in the anti-mormon literature
"but being a good person and living a good or even a great life won't ever get you into heaven, or keep you from hell"
yeah we know very well your apostate doctrine of salvation by grace alone. It's a pity your doctrine only saves the people who is evangelic and accepted Christ as his Savior. Your doctrine damns all the other trillions of people who never had a chance to hear about Christ in his life. They are going to burn in Hell by your point of view. I wonder if God with His Divine Justice would judge the humanity this way!!!
"If you wish I can point counterpoint the differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism..."
Not interested, only anti-mormon stuff.
I will answer the other points when I have time, but this I will deal with first.
"If you wish I can point counterpoint the differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism..."
Not interested, only anti-mormon stuff.
The differences between Christianity and Mormonism is anti-mormon? How? Because it exposes the true nature of Mormonism?
j.
“"LDS are not Christians because Christianity is Monotheist and the LDS church is Polytheist, you cannot be a Monotheist and a Polytheist" The term Christian was invented by the gentiles and is related to the followers of Christh. The use of the prefix -ians was also used to the cesarians or the herodians. So the therm was used to diferentiate the followers of christ from the Jews.”
I will be a tad flippant, but who is Christh? haha sorry had to... Yes the term “Christian” was coined by the Gentiles, and your point is? Name it followers of Christ, Christians, or as in Acts 24:14 a follower of the Way. What one paticually names ones self to show their following matters not, it is what God calls you, if he calls you saved, justified and sanctified then you are. (I may come back to this later)
“So being Christian doesn't apply following any specific doctrine, but implies merely believing in Christ. That's why Catholicism, protestants, JW's, LDS and many others are all christians.”
That is the first time I have ever heard a mormon or someone pro-mormon call a JW a Christian. But to answer you, yes it has to do with what you believe, if it had anything to do with what we can do, then we would all be going straight to hell, every time. Paul dealt with as he called it “the simplicity of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 1:17-31 and that this “simple” Gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews who sot a sign from Jesus and to the Greeks whom Paul preached it was foolishness, that God would take human form and die in our place.
“So my friend whatever you say will never remove my Christianity. We all have different doctrines and and different interpretations and we all must respect each other.”
I’m not trying to “remove” your “Christianity” As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11:4 that there is another Jesus, another Gospel, and another Spirit and there are false apostles, false ministers who receive their power from Satan.
To quote Paul once again (I will be quoting much of Paul here) in Galatians 1:6-9 Paul told the Galatians that if anyone preaches another Gospel to them, be it Paul himself or even an “Angel from Heaven” they shall be accursed. That word accursed in the Greek is anathema, the strongest word Paul could have used, to be doomed to destruction, devoid of God without hope of being redeemed.
And one more from Paul... Ephesians 6:16 “ Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.”
So my question to you, as I am guessing you are a Mormon, in good standing of course. As seeing that Satan runs around as an Angel of Light, his ministers as ministers of righteousness, there is another Jesus, another Gospel, and another Spirit, which all get their power from Satan, is the “testimony” you received, your “burning” a fiery dart from the wicked one?
About the parable of the good samaritan you didn't like the use of the word "worthy" but the word came from the mouth of Christ not mine. You were trying to change subject to your doctrine (not from bible) of Salvation from grace alone. My use of the parable was to shown that the Savior taught us the relation we have with the Heavenly Father. So I repeat: "our Heavenly Father created our spirits and is always our Father (in a creational sense). When we sin we are not worthy to be called Sons of God (in a spiritual sense)"
hmm I have never read “good” anywhere before the word Samaritan, must be some fancy LDS translation... The parable is there to show the Jews, (who he was speaking to) that they should be showing compassion on those who are non-Jews even *gasp* samaritans and gentiles. The Jews believed that the only good use those who are not Jews (as all non-Jews are Gentiles) was to keep the fires of hell burning. So with that in mind it gives one the understanding of why those Jews past by the man and had no compassion upon him. Jesus said “Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.” Luke 10:36-37 He was saying we should show compassion for those who are not of the same faith as all are our neighbors.
About the scriptures about the pre-existence of the soul. I can see we have a common ground. We both believe in the pre-existence of Christ before He was born. I wonder, being christ our example (John 13:15) why we didn't follow Him also in His pre-existence. To Jer 1:4-5 you interpreted it with the "God's omniscience". Of course I don't agree with it. Is a vague interpretation. This scripture connected with all the others I gave make sense the pre-existence doctrine. For example you didn't understood Zec 21:1 (i would be suprised if you do!!!),anyway the sentence "and formeth the spirit of man within him." showns that God formed the spirit of the man and the spirit was living with Him You also didn't understood the scripture Ecc 12:7 the spirit of the man "returned" to God who "gave it". So the spirit returns to where it was because all the spirits lived with God before they were born in the earth.
First of all Zech 21:1? Zechariah only goes to chapter 14... Jer 1:4-5 I don’t expect you to agree with me, I know the Mormon position and how they view certain verses or chapters, this is a very clear showing of God’s Omniscience, as for Ecc 12:7 as with most groups who don’t hold to historic Christian Doctrine you view Ecclesiastes as something outside of what it is, it is man’s wisdom, so to formulate a Doctrine out of that is quite funny really. But I digress... To go back Zech 12:1 So you are saying at the moment of conception the Almighty God cannot create a new and living soul in a person at that very moment?
"but that doesn't take away from the fact that we are all born sinners" Here we have another apostate doctrine, didn't christ said we should be like little children. we must be like them because they don't have sins.
Here is something that has made me chuckle throughout your rant here, you don’t want to hear about “so called anti-mormon stuff” yet you are willing to off handedly call what has been historic Biblical Doctrine for close to 2000 years apostate doctrine.
"The pre-existence of the human soul as an LDS church member see it and as a Christian sees it are two different things" LDS are Christians so this sentence has no sense at all. "... have eternal sex, producing spirit children" I see you have the same "sex problems" as Igazzini lol. The terms "eternal sex" and "spirit children" only exists in anti-mormon literature not in the LDS Church
I will quote one quote from past Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie so this can’t be called “anti-mormon” as it comes directly from your people themselves, Mormon Doctrine pg. 589:
Pre-existence is the term commonly used to describe the pre-mortal existence of the spirit children of God the Father. Speaking of this prior existence in a spirit sphere, the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder and Anton H. Lund) said: “All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the son and daughters of Deity”; as spirits they were the “offspring of celestial parentage”
"I will have to look over their works" I really commend you to study in real books the gospel not in the anti-mormon literature.
Not sure what looking over some early church writers or fathers has to do with “anti-mormon” anything...
"but being a good person and living a good or even a great life won't ever get you into heaven, or keep you from hell" yeah we know very well your apostate doctrine of salvation by grace alone. It's a pity your doctrine only saves the people who is evangelic and accepted Christ as his Savior. Your doctrine damns all the other trillions of people who never had a chance to hear about Christ in his life. They are going to burn in Hell by your point of view. I wonder if God with His Divine Justice would judge the humanity this way!!!
Again I quote some Paul, a true apostate...
Romans 4:16 “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all”
Romans 5:15 “But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.”
Romans 11:6 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
Titus 3:5-8 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It’s is not “my” Doctrine of anything, I hold to it, because the Bible teaches it, we can’t work our way there because we would fall flat on our face every time and if it is about works, god demands 100% perfection 100% of the time, so if you feel you can gamble with your soul with those odds, you are a far more righteous, perfect and holy person than I will ever be, I will continue to be saved by God’s Grace. Grace is getting what we don't deserve, God's unmerited favor, what we all deserve is hell and separation from God, that is were his Mercy comes in, not getting what we do deserve.
"If you wish I can point counterpoint the differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism..." Not interested, only anti-mormon stuff.
At some point I will post a load of Mormon sources on Mormon Doctrine, as I can't go wrong with that right? Or are Joseph Smith Jr., Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith anti-mormon sources now?
j.
Great work.
dr. macavinta,
While the Scriptures does make use of terms such as "sons of God", it is in the sense of God's creations. Nothing in the Scriptures about a mommy god. Nothing. Angels, like us are creations. God was never created, we were. We are not as eternal as God. God never earned the right to become a god.
Yes we do get from the Bible there was a rebellion among the angels. But these angels were never the offspring of God, they were his creations. Again, no mommy gods ever mentioned.
Romans 1 tells us people will worship created beings rather than the Creator Himself. You have chosen to do so.
Be careful what you say (slow to speak). Other sources say that they are henotheistic (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) rather than polythesitic. I do agree with you though; it's important to know who Christ really is. We must accept Christ, the son of God not Christ, the spirit brother of Satan (for there is no such other "Christ" like God's son). Beware of false Christs (Mark 13:6).
Post a Comment